Lead by Example: The Leadership Shift Every Sales Leader Must Make | Neal Goyal

In this episode of The Leadership Match with Martin Rowinski, I sit down with Neal Goyal, GTM Advisor for Ecommerce and DTC & Ecom Whiz, for a quick leadership conversation about leading by example, earning trust, moving from individual contributor to leader, and staying empathetic in a fast-changing business environment.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome back to the Leadership Match. In the next few minutes, we're going to uncover one idea, one lesson, and one action that can help leaders grow. Real conversations, practical insight, and action you can use. Today I'm joined by Neil Goyle. Neil, welcome back. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hey Martin, so great to be back. You know how much of a blast I have coming on your show. So I really appreciate you having me come back.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Absolutely. So we'll get right to it since this is a quick short version. What is one leadership lesson you believe more people need to hear right now?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

One leadership lesson that I view as absolutely critical is do as you would ask your team to do. In other words, a lot of times we we see leadership uh in a traditional sense uh equating to management. And at the end of the day, um the reason why uh the most successful leaders are leading by example really comes down to earning the respect of the team that works for uh for you first, right? If they can see the leader or manager do what good looks like, lead a team as they would be a seller or producer or contributor themselves, ultimately that's how you gain the respect of the team, but at the same time demonstrate a playbook for how you want to run your team as well. So at the end of the day, I think we we kind of have lost this, or we're departing from this time where leaders have we have companies with multiple ranks of uh leadership, and I think that's getting really compressed. I I almost feel like um VPs are asked to do the roles of directors, directors are asked to do the roles of managers, and managers are asked to do the roles of an IC. Um, and that's true because like things have gotten much more competitive, things have required to be a lot leaner than before. Um, traditionally, leaders uh are have a defined role, whereas now it's a much more evolving role. And so when you think of what that all means when you combine it with managing a team, that can actually create a lot of chaos for the team too, right? And and so the key is lead by example, do what do as you would ask your team to do. Lead by example, build the playbook as you're teaching it to.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I love it. And I'm gonna add one thing to that. When you build that trust, when you're asking people to do something that you're capable of doing, and they see it and they follow your lead, they do as you as you do. My favorite part is as you build that trust, those people come to you and they say, Hey, before I really do this slightly different, I just want to run it by you because I found a better way to do what you asked me. And then they run it by you, and you're like, that's awesome, run with it. I love that because it really gets people building that trust, and you really get people engaged, and they do so much more and better. So gotta love that.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

Yeah, I mean, I I can't, you know, I've worked for managers in the past that were like great individuals, but I, you know, and my entire career has been built in the sales profession, the sales and the GTM lens of any organization that I've been a part of. And so even as an individual seller back in the day, and I had a leader, I it was very tough for me sometimes to go to that leader on a particular strategy I was trying to deploy, because the leader themselves haven't done a whole lot of selling. And so a lot of times, like I had tremendous respect for them as a person, as an individual, but as a coach, it was it was quite difficult, right? If if uh if they themselves had not done the selling, right? Absolutely. Whereas, like from my perspective, as I've continued to move into sales leadership, I have still always been on the front line no matter what. I've always been customer facing no matter what. In fact, 60, 70% of my time is spent customer facing, largely because at the end of the day, it's A, trying to drive the outcome, support the team where they need the support, but then also showing them an example of like how you want that playbook to be.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

That's awesome. So, what is an idea, belief, or a strategy that changed the way you lead?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, I think um it was the concept of realizing that moving from an individual contributor to a leader requires like radically different skill sets. And I remember like as an individual seller, the only thing I ever wanted to do, I was like, hey, I want to go coach people, I want to lead teams because I'm a really successful seller. And those are actually really polar opposite skill sets, right? Like just because you're a good seller doesn't necessarily make mean it mean that you're gonna be a good leader, right? In fact, it requires uh polar opposite personalities in that to be a really good seller, you need to be extremely caring of the customer, extremely caring for the work that you do, but you also need to be remarkably selfish with your own personal time. You need to be radically focused on how to drive that specific outcome. And then when you think about leadership, it's actually the exact opposite, right? Still want to have ultimate care for the customer, but it requires you to be radically selfless with your time and radically available to everybody that might need you. And so oftentimes don't those skill sets don't what uh one doesn't make uh someone strong in the other. Um and that was a huge learning curve for me because I was like a really successful seller. I always smashed every quota, I always uh crushed every number, I drove a huge amount of pipeline and revenue for the companies I work for as an individual contributor. But then when I moved into leadership, it was like kind of an awakening, right? It's like, wow, okay, I am a really strong seller and a remarkably average leader, right? That like that was the mirror moment that I had. And it really came down to just being self-aware, like being self-aware of where your own gaps are. And that's also a hard thing, too, because if you were if you were moved into a leadership role, that likely means that you were really good at your previous role or successful in your previous role. And oftentimes that success leads to someone believing that they're capable of achieving everything and they can do no wrong. And and and so it's really tough to maintain that humility. Well, that humility is exactly what's required, right? The ability to look in the mirror, see where your flaws are, see where your gaps in your process are, and then uh essentially understand that um by A, being self-reflective of your leadership style, but then also soliciting feedback from the people around you, from leaders around you, from other colleagues in the industry, and most importantly, your team, right? If you can have an open dialogue with your team and they can bring known gaps that you have uh to you, and how that means it's a collaborative effort to solve all of that together, too.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

That's awesome. So, great follow-up question to that was is there anybody that helped shape your leadership journey? And if so, what did they see in you that maybe you did not see in yourself yet, or was it a true self-reflection on your part?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Yeah, it was um there's a man named Ray Carroll. And Ray, this is back in my days at TapCart. Tapcart is a mobile app provider for brands that are on Shopify. And Ray was an incredible leader. He was the VP of sales uh of the organization. I was an individual contributor at the time. And Ray had an incredible leadership style. He has an uh an amazing energy, uh, ability to coach, uh, knows when to push on someone's strength and address uh various weaknesses, and he was absolutely instrumental in coaching me over the course of that time. And as I had my success as an individual contributor, the one thing I kept coming back to is like, hey, I love doing this for myself. Don't get me wrong. Like, if you're a strong individual contributor, strong seller, life can be really good. Like you get a lot of spotlight, you get a lot of recognition from the rest of the organization, you make good money. But there was something that always kept coming back to. And it was, it was like, I want to coach a team, I want to manage growth, I want to invest in people, I want to see other people win in their career as opposed to just seeing me individually win in my career. And I kept coming back to that. And I brought that to Ray, and Ray challenged that oftentimes, like, hey, Neil, you're a really successful seller. Are you sure you want to do this, right? That probably limits your income trajectory by going to a management role compared to what an IC can potentially do. Um, and and he but he walked me through that entire process of what leadership looks like, right? Ray was a very successful go-to-market leader. He was previously at Marketo, which had a remarkably large exit, early sales higher over there, and led them into a huge outcome and continues to do amazing GTM work to this day. And so one of the things that I'll never forget about what he did for me was advocate both uh both to the entire leadership team in a scenario where, hey, every leadership team member said, Are you sure Neil should move out of an IC role? He is doing one-third of our revenue right now. Like, why would we want to move him out of an IC role? And Ray continued to advocate, continue to uh mentor me to get me ready for that next level while also advocating from the top. So he was someone as someone that saw something that others didn't see. I I saw it for myself. I knew I had the desire to be in a leading role and to build uh build as a part of a greater mission. He saw that too, where others may not have. He invested in it, he made the bet, and he ultimately helped me get into a sales leadership role at the organization where I was able to run the team as well. So forever thankful and grateful for what he did for me.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Way to go, Ray. Shout out to Ray. What is one action leaders can take this week to get better results?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Put yourself in the shoes of your team. I think we are in the most cutthroat environment um that we've ever been in. Companies are in a place where um every single process is being questioned. Every single process is being changed. Teams are getting leaner, and for those that are still on that team are being asked to do more. The world is changing at the fastest pace on record. AI is the largest driver of all of that. And with all of that, every single person on a team is feeling their own version of chaos, is feeling their own version of radical change that's taking place and a feeling of like the ground moving underneath them. And so the best thing I think a leader can do is truly take a position of empathy. Truly put yourself in the shoes of the team that you're around. And that's not just the team that you manage, it's like other leaders at the org as well. Everyone is having to manage their own personal change, professional change, and organizational change. And the better you can understand that or make an effort to understand that, the better you're able to work with your team, earn that trust, and build towards a solution, right? I think the one constant that we have here is because of this now new pace of change, this pace of change is the new normal. And if anything, it's only gonna get faster. That chaos and floor moving underneath you type of feeling is only gonna get more exacerbated. So the better you can understand your team, truly like have those moments of like self-reflection, but then also allow them to do self-reflection, there's gonna be a lot of therapy moments needed. There's gonna be therapy conversations, uh, conversations about relationships, conversations about just emotion and and and how the world is changing and how their place in the world or organization is constantly changing. And so the better we can understand as a leader, the more um empathy we can also um uh lead the organization with as well.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

I love that you mentioned empathy and you also dropped an AI in there. It's one thing AI doesn't have is empathy. So I think we can step up with that. Thousand percent. Thank you, Neil. Um, leadership is built one conversation, one connection, and one action at a time. Thanks for listening to the leadership match. I'm your host, Martin Ravinsky. And if this conversation gave you one idea to act on, subscribe and the action, share it with another leader. Don't be selfish, and I'll see you in the next match. Thanks, Neil. Thanks so much, Martin.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Great being here.